Tilting the Lens CEO, Sinéad Burke visited the Brendan O’Connor Show on RTÉ Radio 1 last week to discuss her new project, “Cripping Ulysses”.
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Full Interview + Transcript
Speaker 1:
Brendan O’Connor on RTÉ Radio 1, sponsored by Timber Living Log Cabins. For your perfect workspace, living space or hideaway, timberliving.ie.
Brendan O’Connor:
I’m delighted to welcome back to the show, the writer, activist and businesswoman, Sinéad Burke. Hi, Sinéad.
Sinéad Burke:
Hi.
Brendan O’Connor:
So Sinéad, we’re actually going to talk today about James Joyce and disabilty, which sounds like a lot, but it’s not. But I think, we’ll warm up to that a bit, maybe. We-
Sinéad Burke:
Good plan, yeah.
Brendan O’Connor:
… catch up a little bit first. Now, you are an ambitious woman, I know, but are you now actually making outer space accessible for disabled people?
Sinéad Burke:
I think in part, both space itself and the organizations that manage it. So, I think what you’re talking about is a trip that I took recently to Florida to do some work with NASA in terms of the US Space Agency. So how that came about, I have a business since the last time we met, which I think was two years ago, which is about how do we make accessibility and disabilty representation parts of organizations. And as part of that work, NASA reached out. Now, I don’t know about you, but when an email like that came into my inbox, I just assumed it was spam and somebody was going to look for credit card details or whatever it was, but it turned out that it was real. So, I was invited to go to Kennedy Space Center to have a tour of the campus and to do trainings and learnings with the senior leadership team there about how do we think about disabilty and access from an organizational level, but also in thinking about what they do as regards to space.
So, I think the European Space Agency has said for the first time they will have potentially a disabled astronaut to go to space. NASA haven’t made that commitment just yet, but whilst it’s interesting to think about in a place without gravity, what does that look like for accessibility, but also how do we think about disabilty and access day to day in the work that they do?
Brendan O’Connor:
Yeah, okay. So look, I mean, NASA is a kind of a headline one, but Tilting the Lens is a very practical, real business, I suppose revolving around that simple fact that you talk about a lot, that the world is not designed for a lot of people.
Sinéad Burke:
Yeah. The business started in the pandemic, and I am not a business person by trade. And the rationale behind starting the business I think was a lot of personal reflection that the pandemic brought about.
Brendan O’Connor:
Okay.
Sinéad Burke:
If we look to our closest neighbors, the UK for example, six out of 10 people who died of COVID-19 in the UK in the first part of that pandemic were disabled. We look at the impact of it on our vulnerable communities in nursing homes and in other places. And for me, that was a real prompt to think about change. While simultaneously with us all working from home and work for me looking very different, it made me ask questions of myself. I have been very fortunate to do a lot of work in fashion and design spaces. I’ve been very lucky, though backed up with hard work, to be the first in some rooms, whether it’s the cover of Vogue or going to the Met Gala.
But the pandemic made me question whether or not that change is lasting or systemic. And what I mean by that is, it’s lovely to be the first, but how do you not be the exception rather than creating a world.
Brendan O’Connor:
Okay.
Sinéad Burke:
And being mindful of all that was going on in the world, I think out of just being at home and having a place and a point of focus set up this business with the three principles of education, advocacy, and design. So, I’m a teacher by trade.
Brendan O’Connor:
Yeah.
Sinéad Burke:
And I think education is really important, whether or not you go to school or go to university, but the idea of being curious about the world, and that notion of we don’t know what we don’t know. And how do we, through education, raise people’s awareness, and then move that from awareness to action? And to your point then around design and advocacy, how do we get everybody not necessarily to care about this work, but to realize its importance and its value? And then how do we look to this as design, whether it’s the design of a radio studio, whether it’s space, whether it’s a product to put lipstick on independently? And I’m really genuinely ambitious to see what change can look like in the future when we think of not just one type of person, but as many people as possible.
Brendan O’Connor:
Before we go on with that, you said six out of 10 people who died in the UK of COVID had a disabilty. I don’t think this is something we’ve discussed. Did COVID represent kind of an annihilation of people with disabilities way more so than in the abled community?
Sinéad Burke:
I think what we know globally around our language of COVID-19 and the pandemic, even of itself, there was a comfort from society generally, wherever you were in the world, around this notion of vulnerable and underlying conditions. It became this script that we each said when the number of people who died or were sick of COVID-19. And the immediate question somebody would ask is, “Yeah, but were they vulnerable?” as if not necessarily that that was allowed, but provide a rationale as to the deaths and maybe gave us just different emotions around it. And I think that personal investigation that we all need to do post pandemic has to be informed in how we go back to what the world looks like now. So some people, particularly those with chronic illnesses, for example, are still sheltering in place, are still not safe to come into these environments. And I think instead of looking to that as a moment in a chapter that’s closed and we are now post pandemic, that’s not the reality for everybody.
Brendan O’Connor:
That’s really interesting. That is really would make you think. You mentioned there the work with fashion and you kind of said, “Well, that’s all very well, but there’s really work to be done.” But fashion is important too. And I know you came back from NASA, and then you picked up a gong, did you, at the fashion awards in London for-
Sinéad Burke:
It was for the impact to have on the fashion industry. So, I think there was three categories of people who were given this award in the Royal Albert Hall, and I was given it within the people category. So, the idea that one has had an impact on the fashion industry. And I do think fashion is very, very important. It is a contentious issue from whether it is fast fashion, the cost of fashion, the labor, whether it is facetious. But for me, the work that I do, which is particularly in luxury fashion, which in and of itself has questions to be asked around affordability or around size, raise fat, phobia, et cetera, but for me it is this powerful industry that speaks to and connects other industries. And I think when we spoke two years ago, my definition of change was having more disabled people on the runway of catwalks, of fashion weeks, whatever it was.
And I still think that’s part of it, but now I am as motivated, if not more, to see disabled people in the boardroom, to see disabled people in the recruitment offices, to see disabled people creating and designing the campaigns and being the designers themselves, because I think visibility is incredibly important, but it can’t be our only measure of success because it’s still then non-disabled people authoring narratives, and we need to look at change at every level.
Brendan O’Connor:
I heard you say a very interesting thing about what you yourself use fashion for as well, which is to hit back at people seeing you as a child.
Sinéad Burke:
Yeah. Radio is a audio medium, but we are actually dressed very alike today, which I don’t think we planned for.
Brendan O’Connor:
No.
Sinéad Burke:
But we’re both wearing navy blazers. Now, I’m controversially wearing black with Navy. You’re doing an all Navy look, which I think is much more chic. But for me showing up today, for example, I’m wearing boots that have a round toe on them, I’m wearing wool trousers, I’m wearing a kind of satin blazer that actually probably makes noise in the microphone if I sit too closely to it. But there is also a red label on my sleeve that says Gucci and Sinéad Burke on it.
Sinéad Burke:
… a red label on my sleeve that says Gucci and Sinéad Burke on it, which is part of their collection in terms of how they design clothes. But for me, whether I was a teenager or an adult, now in my early thirties, we’ll say that quietly, fashion has power because it challenges how people see me. And I am making a choice in how I want you to see me today. Now, I can’t control the words that come to your mind in regards to how I dress, but so much of being a little person and having dwarfism, for example, people make assumptions around what I can or can’t do because of the narratives they associate with little people and people who look like me.
Brendan O’Connor:
And do people, is infantilize, is that the word? Do people do that to little people? Do they do it to people with disabilities in general, regard them as a little bit more childlike?
Sinéad Burke:
I think if we look back to Ireland’s history around Disability or the globe’s history with Disability, this is amazing quote that I love by Simone de Gale, who is an architect and she talks about the fact that it’s not that disabled people didn’t exist, the buildings were inaccessible. If we look back to the history of time, disabled people were considered vulnerable. They were considered to not be part of the community. They were placed in care homes and institutions, some of that, which still happens today. And I think that has shaped society’s view of disability and disabled people. We think about it all the time and how we think about disability and how ableism shows up, which is what ableism is a theory of thought and a definition around the discrimination or the thinking of less of disabled people. So, I’ll give you-
Brendan O’Connor:
So, less than a full person?
Sinéad Burke:
Yes, less than somebody who is non disabled. I’ll give you a classic example. Somebody becomes pregnant and they are asked, “What’s the gender of the baby?” Which is an antiquated question to be asking. The person will say, “I don’t mind if it’s a boy or a girl. I just want it to be-“
Brendan O’Connor:
Oh my God. Yeah.
Sinéad Burke:
What do they say? Healthy.
Brendan O’Connor:
Yeah.
Sinéad Burke:
Now, what do they mean by that? They are not, I do not believe-
Brendan O’Connor:
We know what they mean. Yeah.
Sinéad Burke:
But I also don’t believe, Brendan, that that’s what everybody believes. I think it’s a script. I think it’s a script we have inherited.
Brendan O’Connor:
Five fingers and five toes, and once it’s… Yeah, all of those things.
Sinéad Burke:
But, is that what they actually wish? And what happens then if that baby comes out and it doesn’t have? This is ableism. This is the way in which it is embedded and entrenched in our society. And so much of the work that I feel lucky to be able to do is to begin to unpick this, to begin to challenge people’s perceptions, and even more shine a spotlight on disabled people. Create opportunities for disabled people to be able to access organizations, opportunities across different industries. And I think that’s where we have to start. Visibility is good and important, but we all have a job and a role to play in this.
Brendan O’Connor:
Yeah. Wow. It’s actually brought us on nicely to Ulysses. What is Ulysses 2.2, and how did you become involved, and what is your contribution to it?
Sinéad Burke:
Sure. Well, in many ways. It’s great that we’re talking about it today because on the front of the Irish Times today is the nominees for the Irish Times Theatre Awards. And in the judge’s special category, Ulysses 2.2 was brilliantly nominated for an Irish Times Theatre award. Ulysses 2.2 was this yearlong project in 2022 to mark the centenary around Ulysses. And the way in which it was designed is to mirror the chapters of the book and the episodes of the book. So, 18 artists were selected to reinterpret the book. Some did very closely to Ulysses, perhaps they were Joycian in their own interests and others took a line, a thought, something from their specific chapter and that they worked with it.
Now, as somebody who is very interested in language, the idea of 18 artists being selected and me getting an invitation to participate in this, I won’t lie, my own imposter syndrome was immediately being challenged both as somebody who up until the project hadn’t read Ulysses, but it’s a collective from ANU Productions Landmark, the Museum of Literature Ireland. And when they said, will I take chapter 16, which is about Eumaeus. Again, having not read it, I’ve found it really challenging at the beginning to find something that I could sink my teeth into that would feel in line with who I was and the work itself.
Chapter 16, Eumaeus takes place between three main characters and is basically this chapter of confusion and gossip, which I’m not against all of the time, Brendan. And for me in my way in, I came across this thesis, this academic research from a Canadian academic, which talked about Joyce having a Disability consciousness because Joyce himself was disabled. Now, I am a Disability advocate who proudly identifies as Irish as one of my identities, I am embarrassed to say that before I came across this project and this thesis, I didn’t know Joyce was disabled. Now again, this comes back to how do you define Disability, which is another question.
Brendan O’Connor:
Yeah.
Sinéad Burke:
Because for me, and this academic text talks about Disability being porous, while other identities might be much more rigid, you are or you are not. You can be disabled momentarily. You can be disabled for a period. You can be disabled for your whole life. I’m disabled my whole life. And Joyce had sight issues, that is in modern times a Disability.
Brendan O’Connor:
So, the whole dam and us that people might comfortably feel about Disability. The fact is, when you think about it, so many people are going to become disabled if they live long enough or if-
Sinéad Burke:
Well, we’re all going to be disabled, is the reality. But also if we think about the Irish cannon, Sean O’Casey, was also disabled. And when we think about how our definitions of Disability have broadened, I think it’s so interesting to then reflect back on what we thought was the normative or the standard. And for me, that’s where this project came to life because it provided an opportunity to then not just reflect on Disability within Ulysses because it shows up in several characters, but Disability within Joyce himself, and so much around Ulysses, the disabled characters are used to challenge the notion of the text. So, the whole point of Ulysses is, Bloom is spending one day being very mobile and meeting people, and the disabled characters are used to kind of challenge that notion of mobility. But simultaneously, they’re also used as metaphors to talk about the paralysis of government, to talk about the immobility of people, which in and of itself is ableist. So, for me as a disabled woman, this was an amazing opportunity.
Brendan O’Connor:
Yeah. There are layers and layers to it. I got to see one of the conversations you had.
Sinéad Burke:
Yes.
Brendan O’Connor:
And so, what you’ve taken from Eumaeus is that it’s about people being defined by how other people see you, which I presume is a huge issue for you.
Sinéad Burke:
Yeah. How I then tried to interpret this project was by creating a podcast, because I think audio is such a powerful medium because largely people can’t see you. Now, we have to make sure that this transcripts are available for people who are deaf and hard of hearing. So, created this three episode podcast and the first one was recorded in December in line with the UN Convention on the Day of Persons with Disabilities and with Dr. Rosaleen McDonagh. I’m not sure if you’re familiar with Rosaleen’s work, but she identifies as a proud disabled traveler woman and is an amazing playwright and author. And live in the Museum of Literature in Ireland, we recorded this great conversation about exactly to your point, she holds many identities and how does the world see her because of it.
Sinéad Burke:
She holds many identities and how does the world see her because of it? And part of the conversation she talked about both the joy of being a wheelchair user and the independence it gives her, and what you were talking about earlier, how it also then shines a spotlight on her for other people to then interact with her, whether it is in infantilization, whether it is kind of challenging their perceptions of disabilty. And the idea of the podcast across three episodes is to ask everybody the same questions. How does the world see you?
Brendan O’Connor:
Okay.
Sinéad Burke:
How do you see yourself? What are you ambitious to achieve? And how do those perceptions challenge those ambitions? And how would you design a more accessible world?
Brendan O’Connor:
Rosaleen McDonagh, it was quite challenging in a way for me, things like she talked about, you mentioned the word independence there. And I just assumed that independence was the goal. And when we’re raising kids with disabilities, it’s all about how independent they can be. And she was basically saying this metric is kind of another stick to beat Disabled people with in the terms of judging them on how independent are you? Come on.
Sinéad Burke:
Well, let’s take this example, right? You are not doing this show on your own. There is a team outside who are providing that support. We don’t quantify non-disabled people’s success about their independence. Independence is a myth. We are all interdependent. We may have a way in which of doing things like, I don’t know, you can probably open the bottle of water that’s sitting in front of us independently. I need help. But there are other things that you can’t do that I can’t do. But to your point, we set up this race for Disabled people from childhood, whether they are accessing mainstream education or special education. And our goal is to make them independent. Whether that is financially independent, whether that is independent of their parents who are aging and may not always be there, independent of services and supports. But we all need the doctor. We all need the physiotherapist. We all need to swim. And I think we need a reframing around how we think about the notion of independence.
And for me, the joy of these conversations and for anybody who now really wants to listen to Rosaleen’s conversation around this, that episode is going to go live on February 10th on Spotify or Apple, wherever you get your podcast. And we’ve called the series “Cripping Ulysses”, exactly to… Cripping Ulysses. So Cripping and I would be so open to a conversation around this. So Cripping is language that has been reframed and reowned in the US.
Brendan O’Connor:
Okay.
Sinéad Burke:
There is questions about whether or not it should be reowned and it should just exist as something and language that we no longer use. So it comes from the notion of crip or cripple, which for those who may or may not know, is negative language to describe somebody as a cripple. It is not seen as good. But America has tried to reclaim this and disabilty advocates doing it. So there’s an amazing woman called Alice Wong who has really tried to mobilize disabled people as voters and also for politicians to understand the importance of disabled people as voters, and that they are a real strong demographic for change. And the campaign that she created was called Crip the Vote. So the idea of getting Disabled people out voting and making voting accessible.
Brendan O’Connor:
Okay, can I say crip?
Sinéad Burke:
So it would be recommended that Disabled people have ownership over that language. And I think the good thing to always know, and especially around language is disabled people identify themselves differently and we can’t police or challenge disabled people’s language themselves. Because for example, I would not use the language of special needs. My needs are not special. My needs are ordinary, like the way that everybody else is. But for example, somebody else may feel much more comfortable describing their language, particularly a disabled person of special needs. And we have to get comfortable with that.
Brendan O’Connor:
Okay. So what is your preferred language around that?
Sinéad Burke:
So I describe myself as disabled. So I would say that I use identity-first language, meaning that I am a disabled woman because why-
Brendan O’Connor:
Not a woman with a disabilty.
Sinéad Burke:
And the reason why I would not say I’m a woman with a disabilty is because part of me feels like I am saying my womanhood is more important. It’s important, but sometimes I feel that language makes it look like the disabilty is under the rug and under the carpet. And for me, my disabilty is essential to who I am because I wouldn’t be here if I wasn’t disabled. And now that’s not because my only value on this program is the fact that I’m disabled. But I would be a different Sinead Burke. I wouldn’t be caring about fashion. I wouldn’t be getting involved in this project of Cripping Ulysses. I would be a different person. So because of that and because of my sense of pride in who I am, I feel great sense of power in identifying as a disabled person. But I think as a society, people need to get much more comfortable saying the word disabled. It’s not a bad word.
Brendan O’Connor:
I think people, a lot of times their intent and motivation is good and they’re just unsure as to… And I think a lot of older people feel language is changing all the time and stuff as well.
Sinéad Burke:
But we have to-
Brendan O’Connor:
And then disabled, does it not suggest as well that there is a norm which is abled and that you’re dis something?
Sinéad Burke:
Yeah, I think if we look at etymology, that’s definitely what it means. But I also don’t think differently abled works for me.
Brendan O’Connor:
Okay.
Sinéad Burke:
Because you’re saying, oh, well, they’re differently abled. Everybody’s differently abled. Some people can paint, some people can draw, some people can sing. So I think where the disabled community, at least from what I’m reading sits right now, is a real comfort and pride and ownership over disabled. But acknowledging that everybody is different. But what I would say to people, and I think you’re right, I think there is this nervousness about saying the wrong thing. And my fear is if we are always nervous to say the wrong thing, we never say anything at all. And we further exclude people who have always been excluded. And what I would ask people is what’s worse? You say a word, you embarrass yourself, you make a mistake. Or is it worse that we exclude people? And I think we need to stop prioritizing the embarrassment of non-disabled people over the inclusion of Disabled people.
Brendan O’Connor:
Okay. It’s not about us. I got you.
Sinéad Burke:
I think we make a mistake. We learn, we move on. And we might make the mistake five times, but actually we should feel empowered by it.
Brendan O’Connor:
Listen, speaking of making mistakes, that was another interesting interaction you had with Rosaleen McDonough. So I think she called it not being allowed to make mistakes. You kind of framed it as people pleasing.
Sinéad Burke:
Yes.
Brendan O’Connor:
But I got this impression as disabled women, are you expected to be kind of agreeable and kind of perfect, yes?
Sinéad Burke:
I think the idea is that there’s this notion of the good disabled person or the inspiring disabled person. And I think if you talked to my family, they would absolutely disagree with the notion that I was the good disabled person. But I think sometimes there’s those expectations. When you are maybe visibly disabled also, I think people in their mind equate you with the next one of you that they see. So I have often been down the street or down the road and somebody will call me a name that is not my name because they think I’m somebody else who is also a little person who looks like me. And whether this is a perception I own myself, but I think you are constantly trying to I don’t know if it’s manage other people’s expectations and you know that how they interact with you may impact upon how they interact with other disabled people.
But I think we as a society have to get comfortable with the fact that disabilty exists across the spectrum as do disabled people. And some people will be amazing at their job. Some people may not be. Some people may love to be up at 6:00 AM. Some people may be night owls. And I think, again, we have this one dimensional view of what a disabled person is and maybe-
Sinéad Burke:
We have this one dimensional view of what a disabled person is. And maybe that’s from culture and film and television, but the reality is, is disabled people are… there’s great depth to the community as a whole. It’s not one dimensional.
Brendan O’Connor:
And the one dimension then is so either helpless and “vulnerable” or else kind of inspirational and amazing, they’re the two things?
Sinéad Burke:
And what we have to unpick is why are they inspiring? Are they inspiring because they are doing amazing things or are they inspiring? Because it makes us ask, “If they can do that, what can I do?” And I think we can’t make disabled people objects of inspiration. So there’s a term for it called inspiration porn. So we can’t make disabled people objects of inspiration to make non-disabled people feel better or guilty that they’re not doing enough.
Brendan O’Connor:
Okay. It is always a huge education talking to you. I think I’m fairly okay with some of the thinking here, but yeah, this is really, I’d say is making a lot of people think. Listen, you were in Derry Girls.
Sinéad Burke:
I was.
Brendan O’Connor:
Another one of your talents. Will there be more acting?
Sinéad Burke:
I don’t think today or tomorrow. I think what I would love to do more of is things like storytelling or being able to shine a spotlight or share a microphone with other people. I think media is an incredibly powerful vehicle to change hearts and minds and perceptions. But not just yet. I’m kind of focused on the business, growing the team. There’s five of us now, five of us out of my bedroom. They don’t all live in my bedroom, just to be clear. It’s just remote. They live in different parts of the world, but I’m focused on building the business, trying to learn much as I can.
Brendan O’Connor:
I was looking at your client list and you have some pretty impressive clients there. Speaking of impressive people, it was Meghan Markle who put you on the cover of British Vogue. Have you stayed in touch with H and M as I now call it?
Sinéad Burke:
H and M? Not the clothes shop. I got to spend a little bit of time with them last year when they did their UK tour because they asked me to facilitate a round table discussion with youth activists at One Young World Conference. But in terms of the amount of time that I spent in their company, one on one, it was small and short. But what I admired from them in that moment was using their platform to give space to others. There was amazing advocates talking about education in Nigeria and how do we get girls into education and dismantle those systemic biases that exist. There was others talking about the impact of climate justice on those who are the most vulnerable in our society. There was-
Brendan O’Connor:
So do you admire them and their work underneath all the circus? Are they actually doing good work, which I think people have largely forgotten at this stage.
Sinéad Burke:
I can only talk about my specific experiences with them, which as you said, had been chosen to be on the cover of Vogue and then getting to do this round table with them. What I admired in that moment was their ability to listen. I think it’s so easy when you have that audience at your fingertips to be the person who’s talking. And I think in both instances that I have come in contact with them, what they have done is given me a platform and given others a platform to shine. And I was on the front cover of Vogue in 2019. I was the first little person ever in the world to be on a cover of Vogue. And that gave me a trajectory that would’ve been impossible without it. So I’m very grateful for that opportunity of somebody saying, “This doesn’t need to be about me. This can be about others.” But those are the only moments I’ve talked to them.
Brendan O’Connor:
Okay. You make a great diplomat. Listen, before you go, can I ask you some… I’m not asking you to be inspirational, but you posted recently three tips-
Sinéad Burke:
Yes.
Brendan O’Connor:
… for maintaining curiosity and motivation, I think, wasn’t it?
Sinéad Burke:
Yes.
Brendan O’Connor:
Yeah.
Sinéad Burke:
So for me, I think it’s about always be curious about the things that we don’t know. I think we’re living in this very changing moment, not just in Ireland, but in the world. And I think it’s so easy to kind of say, “You know what? We know enough. This is too hard or people are different from us.” And I think to be constantly curious and to be, whether it’s listening more than we’re talking or think we know, and to sit in that vulnerability of all that we don’t know. I think it’s about surrounding yourself with good people, and one of my goals for myself this year is more clearly communicating. I have a great friend, Rowena, who always talks about the fact that everything’s a communications problem or communications solution.
And then the last thing that I’m trying to do for myself this year is more behavioral stretches. So when I was in Florida, I went to Disneyland. Now I’m not really a thrill-seeker, Brendan. And it’s great because I’m three foot five and don’t make the height requirements for most rides. But I did one that I was legally able to do.
Brendan O’Connor:
What was it?
Sinéad Burke:
Oh, I think it was Thunder Mountain. So not really that scary, but on my Richter scale, terrifying. And I think the 20-foot drop of going into the water made me realize that I need to challenge myself to the things that make me a little bit nervous and in my point of discomfort a bit more. So those are the three things that I’m trying to do this year.
Brendan O’Connor:
All right. All right. I think we could all take those three things in mind. Paula says, this is the most mind expanding interview years. I can’t leave the room. It’s completely smashing my notions of Disabilty, which I previously thought were enlightened and lots of very warm and mind-blowing impact. Every time I hear Sinead interview, it provokes a lot of deep thinking and reconsideration of how we look at and treat disabled people. Absolutely amazing. Liam points out, “Your guest this morning has a beautiful, educated voice and a great voice for radio. Surely some radio station would employ her.”
Sinéad Burke:
If only we knew one.
Brendan O’Connor:
As a radio presenter-
Sinéad Burke:
If only we knew one.
Brendan O’Connor:
There’s enough radio presenters. Sinead, it is absolutely an ongoing education. So just you want to mention again that the first episode of…
Sinéad Burke:
So the first episode of Cripping Ulysses with Dr. Rosaleen McDonagh is going live on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts on February 10th. The second episode with Kimberly Drew will be on February 17th, and the third episode with Alok V. Menon is going to be February 24th. But if I could do two things before I go. I have an all disabled team who have been working on this project, Aine and Emma, if I could thank them for their collective work. And today is my dad’s birthday, so I’m rushing home to spend the day with him. So if I could wish him a happy birthday.
Brendan O’Connor:
Okay. What’s his name?
Sinéad Burke:
Chris.
Brendan O’Connor:
Chris, Happy Birthday, Chris. You should be very proud of your daughter. Okay, we’ll take a break.
Brendan O’Connor on RTE radio.